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EV WORLD EXCLUSIVE ARTICLE |
Wavecrest Tidalforce M-750 electric-assist bicycle in front of authentic 1890 one-room schoolhouse now located in the historic center of Papillion, Nebraska. The M-750 is capable of putting out 1 hp and a top speed of 20 mph from its rear hub electric motor. It boasts range-extending NiMH batteries in the front wheel hub. The bike weighs just over 60 pounds and can support riders up to 275 pounds.
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Come along with EV World's editor as he test rides the Wavecrest Tidalforce M-750 along the creek of the butterflies.
Open Access Article Originally Published: June 12, 2004
Legend has it that when French explorers happened upon a broad meadow, through which meandered a lazy stream, they called the creek "Papillon" after the millions of Monarch butterflies that inhabited the area.
Two centuries later, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has straightened the Papio, as it's now known, and added flood control dikes on both sides of its narrow banks. Atop those dikes are a pair of new biking and hiking trails, one which swings north, northwest up into the heart of what is now Omaha, Nebraska. It actually passes within about a mile of my office. The second trail heads more westerly along the "Little Papio," which flows slowly through Papillion, a small community of 20,000 that we call home.
It is along this latter bike path that I took my first extended test ride of the Wavecrest Tidalforce 750 electric-assist bicycle. The Washington, D.C.-based manufacturer had sent me the bike several weeks earlier, keeping a promise they'd made to me at EVS 20 in Long Beach, California last fall.
Unfortunately, it arrived just as my wife and I were tackling a remodeling project, brought about, in part, by some unexpected termite damage.
Obviously, the remodel got priority, but I did have a chance to take the bike on a couple of short errands, once to the post office and a second trip to get gasoline for my lawn mover. I felt lousy about buying the gas, but good about not having also taken the car.
Finally, with most of the remodel project behind me and Wavecrest wondering when I was going to evaluate their bike, I decided last weekend to saddle up and ride the bike trail, the "Little Papio" extension of which is still relatively new, sections of it having just recently been paved. With my cellphone and a bottle of water, urged on me by my wife -- after all, I am closer to 60 than 50, she reminds me -- and my Canon G2 digital camera, as well as a full charge in the Tidalforce's nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery pack, I set off down the hill towards the center of town. There I would pick up the trail and head east towards the town of Bellevue some 7 miles distance.
I wasn't sure how far I'd actually be able to ride because after laying a new laminate wood floor the week before, my aging knees were swollen and painful. It was hard to knell down and even harder to get back up, so riding an electric-assist bike was not only going to make the trip a bit more enjoyable, it was going to be downright, essential.
I coasted down the hill, past the grade school my children had attended when they were growing up, down through the older part of town with its huge trees and modest, seventy year-old bungalows and craftsman-style homes; past the buff limestone county courthouse, which are now city offices. I stopped momentarily at the one-room Portal school house built in 1890 to take pictures of the bike. The white, clapboard building had been in continual service until just a decade or so ago. Rather than tear it down, it was moved to its present location across the street from the courthouse and next to the new library. A century old farm house shares the historic preservation site with the school, reminders of life in Nebraska one hundred years ago.
Back on the bike, I "potor" -- my fanciful contraction for peddle and motor -- towards the creek, passing the renovated day care center that was once a feed and fertilizer store, pass the barbershop, then the flower shop, and finally across the creek on the 84th Street bridge.
A pair of solid, narrowly-spaced steel posts prevent cars and trucks from driving on the path, and a sign warns about unauthorized use of motorized vehicles on the path. It is that term "motorized" that bothers me a little as I slip between the posts. I am not certain how the city, county or state view electric-assist bicycles. A narrow interpretation, like the posts at the entrance of the trail, would prohibit my riding a bike like the M750 on the path. A broader definition would distinguish an electric-assist bike from other, small motorized contrivances like handicap scooters and powered-skateboards. It's a distinction that more and more communities are someday going to have to wrestle with. It would be all too easy to just rule no motors, period.
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Reader Comments
66 comments so far...
08-Sep-2009
67960
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They still have a few of the original models left:
Wavecrest Tidalforce m750
Posted by: Jerry Dreessen
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28-Oct-2008
64663
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Can I get an external bat. for m-750 wavecrest
Tidalforce bike?
Posted by: Lewis Greene
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06-Jun-2006
24087
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I have seen the legal defination for a bicycle in Florida and wanted to ask something about the seat height. Does the statement mean that the seat must be extendable to at least 25 inches high maximum, regardless of where the actual adjustment is made. Too many negatives makes it unclear.
Posted by: Mike Hughes
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24-Apr-2005
7292
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State Laws differ and individuals should check with the state they live in.
The 2004 Florida Statutes
Title XXIII
MOTOR VEHICLES Chapter 316
STATE UNIFORM TRAFFIC CONTROL View Entire Chapter
316.003 Definitions.--The following words and phrases, when used in this chapter, shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this section, except where the context otherwise requires:
(2) BICYCLE.--Every vehicle propelled solely by human power, and every motorized bicycle propelled by a combination of human power and an electric helper motor capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of not more than 20 miles per hour on level ground upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels, and including any device generally recognized as a bicycle though equipped with two front or two rear wheels. The term does not include such a vehicle with a seat height of no more than 25 inches from the ground when the seat is adjusted to its highest position or a scooter or similar device. No person under the age of 16 may operate or ride upon a motorized bicycle.
"
Posted by: Janet Mitch
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14-Jun-2004
3402
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Bill,
I too, am in that 50 something crowd, and just started riding an M-750 from WAVECREST LABS.
You are so right about finding yourself pedaling along, on what could best be described as a skinny motor bike.
I now ride an average of 17-20 miles at a time with relative ease.
It is 13.5 miles from home to the office, and I will try my hand at commuting with this machine, just as soon as I can find a bike friendly route.
Living in extreme North Dallas, it is scarey enough in my Hybrid Civic.
Doug Canfield
EV TECH "
Posted by: Doug Canfield
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15-Jun-2004
3420
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Bill, yours was the first independent report I've yet read about the Tidalforce M-750. I, too, got to try out the Tidalforce at the EVS in Long Beach, and before that, at the Interbike Show in Las Vegas. It's a great e-Bike, with a very useful design.
Thank you for giving us some colorful narrative and descriptive pictures of the Nebraska landscape, which was an added bonus to your comments about the bike and its performance.
I hope WaveCrest allow you to keep the demo they provided, which I'm sure they will; knowing a good PR opportunity for what it is. And especially, considering your well rounded exposure throughout the EV World.
Although you mentioned your approximate age in the evaluation of the bike, I was wondering what your approximate weight and height are, since those are important factors to the performance of the bike? (And don't say well rounded)! Ha.
By the way, I think French explorers named the Grand Tetons because the distinctive shapes of the mountains reminded them of their wives and sweethearts back home in France. Someone once said, It's a good thing the French didn't discover the Grand Canyon. Ha ha.
Best wishes,
Dave Cutter
Village E-Bike
Posted by: Dve Cutter
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16-Jun-2004
3433
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Great article ! Anybody knows wether charger included is a multivolt one?
So that i could use it here in this 220V territory ?
Best regards from Santiago."
Posted by: andres chapero
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29-Jun-2004
3595
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Hey Bill, do you know Jim Morrison? He also lives in Papillion. From your description, it sounds like a very nice little town. Make sure they save some of that open space!"
Posted by: B20 Biodiesel
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07-Jul-2004
3773
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I have owned my M-750 Tidalforce since March 2004. I use it for work when I get called out to the emergency room. The ER staff are very pleased since my response time has been reduced by riding a few miles with no parking problems and taking short cuts. I work in the Radiology Department and have patient exams of all modalities completed much sooner because of the ease of using the Tidalforce M-750. No traffic to stop me (sidewalks come in handy), no parking problems and best of all improved quality patient care that can save a life. Oh by the way, I also have fun with this high tech bike when camping, going to store and visiting friends. The only problem with the bike is that all your friends want to ride it no matter what age. Think how you can use it for your work situation. It is a plus for healthcare and my patients. Thank you WaveCrest and keep up the good work."
Posted by: Neal Roush
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08-Jul-2004
3779
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The charger works on 110 and 220 current, the charger has a select button to make it 220 compatable. good luck"
Posted by: Mark Spalding
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09-Jul-2004
3799
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It's called "barter", not selling out. But you'd be a fine fellow if you added a disclaimer to the article, ads, whatever, telling the truth. You DID write the review BEFORE getting the offer, so it didn't influence that. Just to make sure it doesn't influence future reviews."
Posted by: B20 Biodiesel
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09-Jul-2004
3802
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B20 Biodies: Hey I bought the bike and no one has to pay you off to make great comments about it. Buy one and see."
Posted by: Neal Roush
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10-Jul-2004
3809
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Sorry guys but for me, this appears to be an electric scooter which should be subject to licensing like any other motorised vehicle. And I would object to its presence it on any dedicated cycle path. The Giant Lafree seems like a far more appropriate model for elderly cyclist (and appears to meet the draft Eurostandard for 'pedelacs' where you dont get power assist unless you pedal). However to be fair, i'd suggest that whoever is trying to market the machine in question should send one to A to B magazine for their review. See www.atob.org.uk
A to B have authoritatively tested quite a range of power assist machines -though hope I'll not need one myself for many years hence.
Bill (age 60)"
Posted by: bill telfer
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10-Jul-2004
3810
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Bill Telfer: You are making assumptions. I have bought this bike because it meets the definition of a bike by USA Law. So Sorry Bill it is a bike only. Look up the definition of the Bill Pres. Bush signed in 2003 defining a bike. No registration necessary. Great bike and looks like you want a freebee to prove your point. Yikes!"
Posted by: Neal Roush
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10-Jul-2004
3812
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M-750 meets all USA standards of a bike. Please read:
Q. Do I need a license to ride or is there a minimum age limit?
A. As long as the motor output is less than 750-watts and the speed is limited to less than 20mph (without pedaling), the TidalForce high-performance electric bike is considered a regular bicycle, not a motorized vehicle. Therefore, no license is required nor is there an age limit.
Best built folding bike I have read about and tested in the 18" or 20" frame. Excellent for all age groups. In fact I was riding my bike on a hiking trail in the volcanic park west of Albuquerque, NM on July 4 that allows bikes (M-750 included) and a young couple from England stopped us and said they liked it and hope it is available back home. This bike is for an any age group who want to go on mountain bike trail for real adventure. Young and old can take out together. It can be used to go a block or two for the newspaper or 15 to 20 miles on dirt trails for steep climbing and on unpaved roads. Frame made by Montague the Paratrooper model. Folds and unfolds in minutes not a half hour. "
Posted by: Edward Uribe
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08-Aug-2004
4281
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I bought one of these and it arrived on Friday. I have ridden it long enough so that I have had to recharge the battery several times. I got about 12 miles on the first charge and about the same on the second. I was riding on city streets on level terrain.
The motor has quit a couple of times, but I turned the computer off and back on and then it worked again. The manual says that if the motor overheats it will shut off and then you need to wait five minutes, but I don't think mine was overheating.
Anyway, I can't speak to the long term durability of this bike, but it is a fun one to ride and it has performed as I hoped it would perform."
Posted by: John W
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09-Aug-2004
4288
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I have had a similiar situations, however, it is very important for the first few weeks to charge the battery 100% then drain to zero and repeat. Even though the charger will show a green light indicating full charge , leave the bike charging for 24 hours. You will not have the 5 lights flashing at the three bar level if you follow what I said. Essentially what happen to you was your battery was low and showed a false reading. Key point, charge for 24 hours!"
Posted by: steve evans
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09-Aug-2004
4289
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My bike has over 600 miles on it and the motor and battery just seem to get better and better. Be sure to charge for 24 hours. I put a rack and a carring bag (total approx. $100.00) on the back which is really helpful when I come back from Wawa, gym, etc. Everyone that rides my bike wants one!"
Posted by: steve evans
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13-Aug-2004
4348
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Questions: Steve . . . do you still charge the bike 24 hours. Do you think it is OK to charge the battery and not have it connected to the computer? I hope to just bring the tire into the basement this winter to keep it charged. Do you think I have to bring the whole bike?
Thanks."
Posted by: John W
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21-Aug-2004
4439
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Yes Andres,
The charger is a multi voltage type as I have the bike in New Zealand and it is 230 volt
brian"
Posted by: Brian Gallocher
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24-Aug-2004
4478
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Some Questions:
An interesting and well written article but it leaves me with some questions.
1. How long/far does the battery last?
2. What is the charging time and method of charging the battery?
3. Approximately what does one of these bikes cost?"
Posted by: Dave Figueroa
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24-Aug-2004
4487
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good day.!
I've looked at many an option for powering my existing mtb.. but after alot of research, i can't wait to be able to afford one !
Question.. what kind of maintenance can one expect to have to perform on these?
And also, If one decided to do so at one point, will the frame accept regular 26 " rims and tires for regular biking ?"
Posted by: Gaston Daigle
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25-Aug-2004
4504
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>Some Questions: An interesting and well written >article but it leaves me with some questions. 1. >How long/far does the battery last?
Depends on terrain and whether or not you pedal. If you pedal leisurely, you'll get 15+ miles on most paved roads. If you are biking on hilly trails, it can be as low as 8 miles or so.
>2. What is the charging time and method of >charging the battery?
Charge time is 3-6 hours via a small 110V charger. You'll get a little more range if you let it charge overnight though.
>3. Approximately what does one of these bikes >cost?"
~$2500.
JD"
Posted by: Jimmy Dee
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26-Aug-2004
4510
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The Wavecrest website isn't as informative as I would like. Does anyone know what the differences are between the 750 and the IO model? By the way, the fact that wavecrest employees monitored this site and responded to questions is a HUGE factor I will consider when buying an electric bike. You have to really respect that."
Posted by: Larry Martin
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26-Aug-2004
4516
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Looks like the only difference between models is the frame and possibly the weight. The hardware appears to be the same.
JD"
Posted by: Jimmy Dee
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31-Aug-2004
4577
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Dear John W:
Good question about the battery, I am interested in the answer myself. I think you should address the battery issue with Brent at Wavecrest.
If you haven't yet put a rack and storage bag on the back of you bike, your missing a real luxury. I can fit one half gallon of milk and a few other supplies in my rear bag. Great for my trip back from Wawa or the health spa."
Posted by: steve evans
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14-Sep-2004
4698
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I've had just the opposite experience. I've contacted Melanie Beyer from Wavecrest via email and phone (her contact info is posted above) and she has always gotten back to me within a day, usually the same day. I just sent my wheels in last week for the X software upgrade and she has been with me at every step, checking on status, giving me tracking numbers for the shipment back, and even giving me tips on how to increase battery life, etc. I'm surprised you are having trouble. Spam blockers and virus scanners have gotten so "junk happy" these days that I wonder if somehow your emails never reached them. I would suggest calling Melanie on the phone in case something went awry with the emails. BTW, I have no connection whatsoever to Tidalforce, Wavecrest, or any company that promotes the bike; just a satisfied customer."
Posted by: Jimmy Dee
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15-Sep-2004
4722
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I just read through all the prior comments. They were helpful to me, because I JUST purchased the M750 from ElectricCyclery.com in Laguna Beach, CA. I reside in downtown LA. I am a student and have a part-time job and live close to school and work (2 to 3 miles) - all these locations are in downtown inner-city LA. I have figured that the M750 will save me approximately $160 per month in gas and parking fees, plus I will probably arrive at my regular destinations (school, work, gym, home) more quickly and with less frustration on a day-to-day basis.
I am so SYNCHED about this bike. I never dreamed I would spend this much money on a electric bike when I started my quest for electric transportation. My simple and rather casual quest started a couple days ago when I looked at a Schwin scooter for $199 at Pep Boys while waiting for my car to be serviced (I had a wait of 6 hours for a brake job!). But, when I considered at all the features of the M750 compared with my requirements and concerns, the M750 won hands-down.
A couple of observations though to anybody contemplating this bike.
I have found no webside/writeup on this bike that does it justice. Before returning to school, I worked for Nike for 14 years and they are a marvel of a marketing company. Tidalforce gets a C- on their marketing efforts around this bike.... They need to beef-up their website big time and add more detailed pics.
I received a lot of answers to my questions about M750 from Dave, on the phone, who oversees electricrider.com. Dave was great and I had planned to buy the bike from him today, but then I today found a dealer in Laguna (electriccyclery.com) who is ordering my 20” today (due to no 20” in inventory) and it will arrive in 4 working days, and I don’t have to pay a $125 shipping charge. Sorry Dave…
Then, after my purchase with electriccyclery.com (5 mins after the sale!), I found out about Costco selling the bike for $1999 (from this webside here). I got the bike for $2299 - dealers just lowered their prices yesterday (per Dave).
I almost cancelled the sale and was going to head for Costco, but I didn't for a couple reasons. Regardless of what I purchased, I was concerned about long-term service. I can go to electriccyclery for service - if need be, but I feel the quality of this bike is so high my service concerns are now minimal, but still… if by chance I need assistance….
Another factor is that they will assemble the bike for me. I have heard that this is no big deal, but another factor here that I didn’t really know about is that the bike's battery needs to be cycled through about 4 to 5 times to get the full charge/ full range on the bike. Electric Cyclery has a treadmill and will do this for me free of charge (well, actually I guess I am paying for it with the cost difference between Electric Cyclery and Costco). My bike will be fully charged up and operation when I pick it up!
Considering I exist in inner-city LA right now - theft was and still is a major worry for me. The M750 will attract attention. This is now is my biggest concern. I purchased the Krypto(sp) lock with theft $3000 coverage, but be warned that there is a "gotcha" with this theft coverage. In order to make a claim, some piece of the lock needs to be returned to mfgr or claim cannot be made.
So, for example, if someone just picks up the whole bike with the lock intact and throws it in a truck or something - no claim... So, one must chain this bike to something so the lock would have to be cut or frozen/shattered and hopefully some piece will be left behind for you to make the claim with Krypto.
I guess some people in the world were making false theft claims and Krypto needed to add more stringent requirements for claimants. I’m still very concerned about theft, but on my daily travels to school, work, gym, and home - I have located fairly secure areas to keep the bike. But when I am tooling around the city, I’m going to have to be very very careful…
In conclusion - I found nothing else available to compare to this bike. It is very expensive... I’m still breathing hard after thinking about this outlay of money….. I am a student on a tight budget (going through one of those mid-life career changes - I am 43 y/o) - money is precious to me at this point to get retrained in a new field, but my research on other electric scooters and bikes left me with an high uneasy feelings. Especially service... I had heard, several times, that availability on the other models (currie, schwinn, GT) was sporadic and service was horrific because of the availability of parts (I heard of one story - a 7 month wait on a critical part for an electric scooter). Also the dealers for these other brands pop up for business one day and are closed down the next. My concerns in this areas were adequately addressed with M750…
I originally started out thinking I could save myself a lot of money on a month to month basis in gas and parking charges, but now that is a wash, of sorts. But heck, I just wanted the bike and nothing was going to convince me otherwise after I did my research. I think it is money well spent and will add a higher degree of “fun” to my life (which is already great, but more “fun” is always welcome).
Well - that’s it. At this point, I’m like a kid at Christmas time waiting to open up my present! I can hardly wait for the bike to arrive and hop on it.
Kevin
"
Posted by: kevin naegler
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15-Sep-2004
4723
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I am considering a purchase but can't find a dealer in the Bay Area of Northern California. Any suggestions? Can someone comment on their experiences with warranty and maintenance? This has been a sore spot with other products and I would regret spending $2000 only to find out the customer support is not there. Last question: how does it do on hills?"
Posted by: Jim H
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15-Sep-2004
4729
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A basic physics question: isn't it a waste of energy go spin the heavy hub battery every time you accelerate? Then when you brake you must absorb that flywheel energy. Batteries on the frame seem inherently better. The heavy hub also degrades suspension performance, no?"
Posted by: Bob G
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16-Sep-2004
4732
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What are the effects of harmonic resonance on crystalline structures (elemental crystal configuration). "
Posted by: james E
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17-Sep-2004
4738
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I think having the battery and motor in the center hubs is inherently better because it lowers the center of gravity of the bike and makes it much more maneuverable. I don't believe angular momentum of spinning a heavier wheel is an issue because whatever energy you used to start it spinning will be exactly recovered by the fact that it is harder to *stop* that wheel too due to the momentum stored in a rotating mass."
Posted by: Jimmy Dee
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17-Sep-2004
4741
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I don't think the battery rotates. The wheel hub rotates around the battery.
It is a concern to me however, that the battery being an electrochemical device must be able to withstand the G-forces of a bouncing wheel. I was assured by WaveCrest Laboratories that the NiMH batteries are thoroughly tested and very rugged. I still have not been able to find out how much they cost!
They advertise 400 charge cycles. At 20 miles per charge, that is 8,000 miles. If the battery is $500, that works out to about ($.06) 6-cents per mile. That is equivalent to an automobile that gets 25 miles per gallon with gasoline at $1.50 per gallon. This would hardly be worth having the bike on 'purely fuel related' economics. Of course that makes other factors the reason for owning one.
I expect mine next week.
"
Posted by: Ray Miller
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17-Sep-2004
4742
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What are the effects of harmonic resonance on crystalline structures (elemental crystal configuration).
I believe you get a continuous sign wave of alternating voltage potential. The crystalline structure itself should not be affected unless of course, the voltage is high enough to shatter the structure."
Posted by: Ray Miller
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17-Sep-2004
4743
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Unless you can explain "harminic resonance on crystaline structures" in layman's terms so people can understand what you are getting at, I doubt you will get any responses to that question."
Posted by: Jimmy Dee
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20-Sep-2004
4765
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Battery depreciation should be compared to a car's depreciation, not its gasoline cost. The bike wins on both factors (energy and depreciation), not to mention insurance and ownership tax."
Posted by: Bob G
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10-Oct-2004
5053
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Does anybody have good/bad experiences with cold weather affecting the performance? Has anybody tried ice tires (with spikes)? It sure would be nice to leave the car at home during an ice storm. "
Posted by: marshall m
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20-Apr-2008
61271
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I have the most beautiful WaveCrest TitleForce eletric bike sitting in my garage. I have had it now going on three years. I can count the the number of days that I enjoyed it on one hand. I bought the bike at Cycle Dynamics in Greenwich form some very nice people, but they were no help in solving my problem. I guess the company dissolved and a new company started. My bike runs for a little bit and then just stops. This is no fun at all because the bike is very heavy. I consider it one of my worst buys and a waste of money.
Posted by: Patricia Ford
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29-Jun-2008
62457
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Hello Patricia Ford
Would you sell your tidalforce to me ?
Posted by: fred jung
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13-Jun-2004
3387
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Bill, the Wavecrest web site says the total weight of the bicycle, battery and motor is 30Kg - 64lbs.
30kg for the battery seems a bit heavy.
-- Brandy"
Posted by: Dennis Brandenburg
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13-Jun-2004
3389
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I was also wondering about the amount of NiMH battery used. Something is not right."
Posted by: Jianguo Xu
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13-Jun-2004
3392
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Dennis... you're right. I misread the manual that came with the bike. It is 30kg for the entire bike, with the battery hub attached. It felt like 100 pounds lifting it over that barbed wire fence.
BTW... I didn't get to ride the bike this weekend. We've had severe thunderstorms Saturday and Sunday.
"
Posted by: Bill Moore
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21-Jun-2004
3499
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Thanks for the article Bill. Hope the knees are feeling better. As one more 50-something can attest to, these knees too have seen better years! All the more reason to bike more. I'm wondering if I get an electric that I'll just get lazy and use the motor instead of my legs. Hey, maybe if you test-ride the Io, they'll let you keep that one. Any plans in the works to do that one? Thanks for the info about the company in DC that rents. Sounds like a good way to get a try at one. Peace!"
Posted by: Tom Molineaux
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01-Jul-2004
3663
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Just as a follow-up, Wavecrest has offered to give me the test bike in exchange for an equivalent amount of advertising on the site and a couple free subscriptions to EVWorld Premium.
That's a deal I just couldn't pass up. My only question now is, have I just sold out?
"
Posted by: Bill Moore
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04-Aug-2004
4186
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I often ride my mountain bike along a winding trail in the woods with a backback and some fishing equipment. The exercise is nice to the fishing spot but after some relaxing fishing, I often just do not feel like pedaling the 2 miles home. No one ever really states how much of a hill this bike can climb with NO pedal power. The trails have ups and downs both ways and I'm just wondering how much of a hill this thing can climb without pedal power on a dirt trail.
Thanks,
JD"
Posted by: Jimmy Dee
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04-Aug-2004
4209
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No problem with hills or steep grades. I am about 198 lbs. and ride in the mountains of Arizona and the bike has never stopped because the hill was to steep. Everything has it's limitations but I have not found this bike to prove disappointing only fun fun fun. This is an exceptional engineering design with plenty of torque and no sound when running. "
Posted by: Neal Roush
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05-Aug-2004
4221
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Thanks Neal. I actually bought one yesterday and had a chance to briefly try it out before it rained. It does do an excellent job but I have found a few hills where I need to add just a little power. We're close to the same weight and for a ~200 pound rider, I figure that this thing should be able to pull about an 18 degree (about 20%) grade unassisted given the 59 lb/ft of torque that the motor generates. Actual use seems to verify that, and I've found that basically any incline where you'd find it necessary to stand up and pedal hard on a regular mountain bike, you may need to add a little boost by pedaling leisurely. Not a big deal, but this thing wasn't meant to be used to tackle steep hills on trails unassisted. Being used to a regular mountain bike, I've learned that the hills where I used to have to stand up and lay all my weight into the pedals using second or third gear... I'll need to help a little. It's clear that the motor just doesn't have as much torque as a human being going "all out" in a low (1-3) gear on a mountain bike, but then again, a person can't go "all out" for more than about a minute either. I still LOVE it!!! It's going to be a great way to expand how far I can go on the trails without killing myself in the process.
JD"
Posted by: Jimmy Dee
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05-Aug-2004
4222
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Correction on the angles... I went out and measured the angle of the road that the M-750 was just barely able to crawl up: 10 degrees (about an 11% grade). That's significantly less than I had calculated. Since I'm on the first full charge of the battery, I wonder if it'll get a little stronger with a few more uses and if the experience of others is similar to mine? Time will tell.
JD"
Posted by: Jimmy Dee
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05-Aug-2004
4228
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I own two of the M-750's and think they are great. Have over 600 miles on my first one and absolutely love the bike. You must ride it to believe it!"
Posted by: steve evans
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05-Aug-2004
4239
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Motor overheating and all LED's flashing... I don't want to seem like I'm trying to monopolize this discussion with so many posts; I'm just trying to both disseminate and at the same time gather as much info as possible to make my enjoyment of this bike all that it can be. Perhaps someone should start a Yahoo group for this bike? Anyway, on to my observation/question. In traveling some local mountain bike trails today, the motor started shutting down with all 5 battery LED's flashing. After a few seconds, the display would go blank and you could press the "A" button to get it back online... for maybe 10-20 more seconds each time.
It this normal? It didn't start happening until I got down to about 3 LED's on the battery meter and apparently I was closer to the end of the battery than I thought because it only made it about another mile before shutting down completely and needing to be recharged. It's only my second run on the battery and I know that: (1) the battery is supposed to get stronger and last longer after the first few uses and (2) the manual states that prolonged hill climbing can cause the motor to shut down due to heat. I guess it's normal but it didn't seem like I was stressing the motor that hard because I was pedaling along. Maybe I was relying on it more than I realized though because I did hit some decent hills. Anyone else have any experience with motor shutdown, particularly toward the last part of a charge?
Thanks,
JD"
Posted by: Jimmy Dee
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17-Aug-2004
4373
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My name is Melanie Beyer, and I am a customer service representative for WaveCrestlabs TidalForce electric bikes. I would be happy to answer any and all questions concerning your inquiry. Please contact me via email or by phone (703-435-7102 ext 188)
Sincerely,
Melanie Beyer"
Posted by: Melanie Beyer
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17-Aug-2004
4374
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Greetings everyone,
My name is Brent Meyers and I am the Manager of Customer Relations for WaveCrest Laboratories.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their comments on our products. Your feedback is incredibly important to us (being that we are always looking for ways to improve our products and service).
I noticed that a couple of you are experiencing some issues with the battery. If these issues continue, please contact me at anytime. Also, please feel free to contact me with general questions or concerns. You can contact me directly at 703-435-7102 ext. 172 or e-mail me at brent.meyers@wavecrestlabs.com.
Once again, thanks for the valuable feedback and I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Thanks,
Brent Meyers
Manager of Customer Relations
WaveCrest Laboratories
"
Posted by: Brent Meyers
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17-Aug-2004
4378
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I have 1000 miles on my bike and it performes like new. There are times I will just pedal along a quiet steam and not use the battery. (Remember this bike is good for those muscles,cardiovascular and our respirtory systems etc.)When I pedal for over five minutes without using the motor the computer goes on standby and must be reactivated by pushing the Battery button or turning off the key and starting up again. No big deal. Sometimes I don't even turn on the motor and just ride the bike until I need some help with those steep grades. Over a period of time, regardless of age, if you pedal this bike you will notice your leg and thigh muscles increasing in strenght and muscle tone. Use this terrific bike anyway you want but remember your body is a machine that needs a tune up for good health. I would like to add that I was privilged to get my bike as soon as they came out. Brent Meyers has assisted me with a few minor problems. He goes out of his way to help you. Excellent support help with Brent at WaveCrest. This staff is sincere and dedicated and best of all they want you to be happy with their product."
Posted by: Neal Roush
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06-Sep-2004
4629
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Does anyone besides me feel let down by Tidal Force. When I bought the bike about a month ago for $2499 I knew it was retail, but I thought it only contained a fair mark-up. Now Costco is selling the bike for $1999 and you know they have to have a 20 to 25 percent mark-up. So I guess Tidal Force was selling the bike for about double what it was worth. Do you think it would do any good to complain?"
Posted by: John W
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07-Sep-2004
4638
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I'm a WaveCrest dealer who is shocked that Wavecrest has sold the product to CostCo. Costco is selling the bike for penny's over wholesale and offers no service. I doubt that there will be a single electric bike retailer who remains willing to sell the Wavecrest line."
Posted by: Marc Agger
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09-Sep-2004
4663
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It's not clear to me whether Costco is putting these things together or whether they come in a box for the customer to assemble. If the latter, assembly is worth something, so the difference may not be so great. I got mine from a local bike shop about a month ago for $2399 and prices may have dropped slightly since then too, narrowing the difference a bit. Costco, being a volume retailer, may get a slightly better price too, so I don't see anything wrong with trying to get the bike into the mainstream market. Bike shops have always been a little more for the same bike when compared to discount warehouses and other large retailers. I think that's "expected"."
Posted by: Jimmy Dee
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12-Sep-2004
4685
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I've just learned about this bike from Costco.com, and was contemplating on buying a Segway before that. I work on a campus that charges their employee $700+ a year for parking which creates a nice incentive to get a Segway or an electric assisted bike. I plan to carry this thing in my car so that I can park on the street and bike in to work. I have two questions regarding the M-750.
1) Will this bike work in the rain?
2) How much does it cost to replace the battery?
3) What's the estimated MTF for the battery?
Thank you. "
Posted by: Wayne Chen
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13-Sep-2004
4687
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How easy is the bike to fold? I anticipate biking to the bus, folding, riding the bus, unfolding, and biking the rest of the way. Is this practical? Does it take under 1 minute to fold up enough to get on the bus, or mode like 5 minutes? Thanks..."
Posted by: Fred S
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13-Sep-2004
4689
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The bike takes only seconds to fold. There's a quick release latch. You just pop the latch and fold. I'd say 10 seconds. The problem you might have is negotiating the folded frame with wheels still attached onto the bus. It's a bit unweildy when it is folded because it does way about 64 pounds. I'm sure once you get used to it, you'd find the right spots to grab it when it is folded so it isn't swaying around on you. Still, it may be a bit of a "grunt" to take it up bus stairs and also a bit of a stretch to get a folded bike down the isle and then take up an extra seat. Where would you put it once you are on the bus? It might be more trouble than it's worth even on a stand up bus."
Posted by: Jimmy Dee
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13-Sep-2004
4690
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Wayne,
Some, but not all answers... From what my dealer told me, you can ride the bike in the rain, but it isn't advisable to ride it in a downpour. Getting caught in a light rain is OK on occasion, but I wouldn't make a habit of it and I'd try to avoid it when I *know* it's going to rain. I don't know how much a wheel battery or the upcoming (available I believe Oct 2004) second battery is. I'm not sure many people have had occasion to replace them or buy new ones yet. Don't know about the MTBF either."
Posted by: Jimmy Dee
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13-Sep-2004
4691
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Several ad ad-hoc races between the M-750 and a heavily-modified (chain-drive, 25MPH) Ego electric scooter, and a Currie-type 600W electric bike produced these opinions:
- The M-750 is barely faster than the $700 Currie-class ebike, in stoplight-to-stoplight city cycling.
- The chain-driven Ego-II scooter, dragging a 50-lb trailer and with batteries already 1/2 discharged arrived at the end of the block about 20' ahead of the M-750.
- The M-750'S electronic console, held by a screw, would be tempting and too-easy to steal, to any bike thief.
- The saddle on the M-750 feels rather hard, given this bike's high price.
- The M-750's battery requires 20-30 minutes to cool down before recharging. An inconvenience that should have been fixed by an internal fan at the factory. Sorta' like a computer CPU fan.
"
Posted by: bill m.
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13-Sep-2004
4692
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You are comparing a military grade mountain bike to, in one case, a cheap bike with an add-on motor and a gawdy topheavy battery (Currie) and in the second case, a 1000 watt electic scooter which is in a different class than electric assist bikes which are restricted to 750W by law. I don't think there is any comparison between the M-750's completely silent, hub delivered power, when compared to chain driven systems like the Currie.
In addition, Wavecrest now has an X software upgrade for the M-750 that brings it from 750 watts up to 1000 watts, increasing both speed and hill climbing... for $250. I ordered the upgrade and it has been shipped to me, so I can report later in the week regarding how much more power/speed you can get for that $250 upgrade, but my bet is that with this simple upgrade, your race results would be quite different."
Posted by: Jimmy Dee
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13-Sep-2004
4695
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Well so much for customer service...
I wrote earlier that I was impressed by Wavecrest for monitoring sites like this and offering help to people who need it. I was wrong, I guess about them. I have emailed them with several questions and for finincing information and after two weeks still have no reply.
I guess I'm going with an ebike after all. Sigh. I really thought the Tidalforce would be a better bike but with no support within several hundred miles, and no one willing to respond to emails - what choice do I have.
Someone dropped the ball. That's no way to run a company."
Posted by: Larry Martin
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25-Sep-2004
4822
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More on battery depreciation:
The battery is rated 9 amp hours and a replacement costs $600. The owner's manual says "Over time (two to three years), the battery will lose some of its charging capacity."
As Ray said, the battery remains stationary with the fork, while the hub (housing) rotates around it. I like the low center of gravity and the use of space in the hubs -- no interference with any bicycle accessories.
Can any of you owners comment on the bike's performance on rough mountain trails? "
Posted by: Bob G
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05-Oct-2004
4976
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I got an e-mail from one of their dealers stating that the battery was 7Ah.
Is it 7 or 9?
On the other hand I have tried the bike in difficult places and it works perfectly, when I say difficult places I mean off-road.
The climbing ability should be around 15-20% in turbo mode without pedalling"
Posted by: Jose M. P.
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07-Oct-2004
5015
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I couldn't find any user groups about this bike, so I just created one:
http://groups.msn.com/TidalForce/.
Let's go ahead and discuss this amazing bike on that forum!"
Posted by: David Ebbo
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