Also, why not start an independent site to let the manufacturer know that the demand is there and people are willing to pay for the car like Dr. Lyle Dennis did for the Chevy Volt at http://gm-volt.com?
Posted by: Greg Tyler

i will visit the nearest subaru dealer at my earliest opportunity in order to see how close the company is in mass producing a moderately priced vehicle----keep the faith that one day in the near future, we as a nation , can be self reliant in our energy needs

thank you .
Posted by: BILL MULLEN

Dear Friends

I have been driving my diesel Smart car in the US and have not been run over yet. As a matter of fact, people have been stopping me on the street to ask about my car. The size of the R1e is quite appropriate for most main cities in the US.

Subaru Canada unveiled the R1e prototype electric vehicle at the Canadian International Auto Show in Toronto this past February. I have no doubt that the R1e will be received very well in Canada. Cities like Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver had waiting list for the Smart; I can only imagine the lineups for the R1e.

First, while involving the dealers at some point will be a necessity, I am not convinced that involving them in the initial phases will be worthwhile. Auto dealers seem to be nothing more than a loosely tied retail system for a manufacturer's vehicles. In my dealings with auto dealers, I am not convinced that much feedback (other than service issues) is collected. I may be wrong, that's just my current opinion.

Secondly, while money does speak, one big pile of money says a whole lot more than many hundreds of little piles of money. Instead of giving money to a dealer that cannot do anything but make a phone call to Subaru - something we can do ourselves - it might be worth everyone's time to set up one large account for Subaru in escrow and pool all the down payments.

Instead of letters from individuals saying, 'My local Subaru dealer has my downpayment of $XXXX awaiting my R1e' one notarized letter from a banker or lawyer could be sent saying, 'As of XXX date there is $XXX,XXX being held in escrow on behalf of the attached list of clients to be paid to Subaru as down payments on XX number of Subaru R1es or equivalent battery electric vehicle.'

You may be starting a grassroots campaign, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't have a centralized organization supporting it.

Good luck! "
Posted by: Andrew Netherton

I approve of your efforts and the suggestions that have been made by others on this website. I express similar ideas at my website at www.electric-automobile.com , but your ideas seem more developed than mine. The California Cars Initative also has a similar proposal. Though I believe in pushing established automakers to make electric autos, it is probably better to support dedicated electric automakers, such as the maker of the Tango, AC Propulsion, and Zap World. AC Propulsin's idea for a "reductive" charger system sounds interesting.

To aid the grassroots efforts, it may be useful to design a web site that uses many of the web site design features found on the moveron.org and Howard Dean websites. Those websites have created a huge following and the Dean website has raised large sums of money. It may be useful to have the various EV organizations networked together with your grassrots organization. If most of the EV groups would coordinate their efforts in getting the word out and supporting a dedicated EV manufacturer, or even collectively creating their own EV manufacturer, much can be accomplished.

Maybe an open source EV design organization can be created. The organization would be international and create an electric auto design. That design would become freely available to any person or organization that wished to build an electric automobile using that design. Further anyone would be free to submit suggestions to the design. Think of it as the idea behind Linux, but adapted to electric automobile manufacturing."
Posted by: Gavin Young

First, AZ points out that whatever our grass-roots groundswell tries to do, it has to be simple. That means, if nothing else, that we have to state our consensus requirements -- which in turn means everyone will have to give up something in their wish list.

AZ also points out the REVA from India. In my view, this car JUST about meets the "median" requirements that have been specified in this discussion, except for ONE thing: you can't drive it on the highway (it's top speed is about 45 mph). That just won't fly in urban America.

AZ also thinks that a car with a 100 mi range will cost $100K. I beg to differ.

MP thinks that tweaking the Prius is a good idea. As a Prius owner myself, I agree. BUT, Toyota won't do this for existing models (I've asked them to install Li-ion batteries for me so I could have, say, a 10-15 mile range on electricity alone and would like to charge it NOT via the gas engine but by plugging it in -- much more energy efficient). ALso, Toyota says that the warranty will be violated if one tries to do this oneself. Ouch!

Finally, BB praises the REVA as well, but I doubt that even the early adopter stalwarts in this discussion would want to fork over even a measely $7K for a car that one can't get serviced in the US and which might turn into another Yugo as a result. But, I could be wrong.

All that said, here is my net assessment of the requirements for a BEV that will sell, say, 15,000 units in the first year based partially on what I've read in these positings and partially from talking to early-adopter colleagues

: 1. 2 seater with room for groceries in under the hatchback

; 2. AC, CD, power windows (I know, I know, the latter are a stupid waste but whadda-ya gonna do with lazy fat Americans?)

; 3. 100 - 150 mile range between charges

; 4. 5 to 6 miles per kw-hr efficiency (hard to do with lead-acid batteries because they weigh so damned much; Li ion are 50% lighter with same energy density)

; 5. TRULY highway capable (that is, speeds of up to 100 - 120 km/hr)

; 6. Regenerative braking (otherwise, its hard to get 5 to miles per kw-hr)

; 7. Reasonable warranty on drivetrain (here's where the "do-it-yourself" solution fails for all but the mechanically brave and talented)

; 8. Reasonable availability of service (here's where the REVA and other small, non-Japanese/Korean car companies can't comply).

; Serious comments welcome. "
Posted by: Alan Zelicoff

The oil industry doesn't want electric cars either, and they along with the auto industry are a powerful lobby in the USA against change. They have done this very successfully since EV1 of the 1980's. Governments also do not like change and survive on the Status Quo. For electric cars they will have to revise the fuel taxes or up the price of electricity so everyone pays. However, now we have a limited supplies of oil to the Western world, so the winds of change are blowing strong. I would love an electric car, but it has to be sensible for urban commuting and shopping with four doors. How many of us need a Tesla Roadster?
Posted by: Roger Evans

I have REALLY wanted an electric car for ages. Technology developments keep getting better, but no large manufacturers respond to environmental needs or consumer wants- They keep up business as usual, telling people what they think we want to buy--predatory commerce [the prey is us].

If anyone else has noticed, ALL vehicles that got up to 40 mpg have been virtually removed from market; now dealers are glowingly selling cars that get a whopping [!?] 27 mpg! Oh. wow. And playing dumb about what has happened to all the cars that previously got 30 to 40 mpg.

Gizmo electric NEV's got about 35 mph for about 45-50 miles, I think--but only one seater...they are not doing biz right now. Forcing the NEV's to remain dumbed down to 25 mph is ridiculous! Imho, it will be up to millions of regular folks to take older model cars and just convert them into all-electric, 60 mph, 100 mile range cars---and do that to all our lawnmowers, too.

IF we actually want REAL electric cars [not wimpy NEV's--though that's a start] to be hugely successful, units must sell cheaper than $20K to allow the masses to afford them quickly, and address whatever issues are currently blocking them here, such as:

TAXES: One great impediment to getting electric cars: fuel taxes fix roads and fund public transportation. If we are to push any company to market cars like Subaru R1e [sure is cute!], to flood the market with real-world usage electric cars, we solve decreased State incomes for road maintenance and mass transit funding. It is possible that electric car users will need to pay a 'road tax' with each annual registration renewal, or something. Maybe all vehicle registrations will need to be tied to road tax, rather than getting monies from fuel taxes. Anyone got better ideas?

BIG AUTO MAKERS GOING UNDER: These guys have been in bed with Big Oil too long. To continue business, they must see the light for making actually energy efficient, electric units. The only light they have seen, is that the EV1 was terrifically good, popular, and they viewed it as a threat to their current power status. They use incredibly sophisticated, predatory, psychological market tricks to get folks excited about worse cars, all done up in pretty paint and cosmetic additives. Dealers and manufacturers lie to customers. This all needs changed!

COAL ENERGY: There is no such thing as "clean" coal--at least, not in this country [see some of the cutting edge German technology-which we also are not allowed to have here]. There is better technology to use. The ash from burning coal is used to make better concrete--use that, too.

NUCLEAR POWER: Only 'clean' in a loosely relative way. The security threat and wastes from it are terribly costly. There is, evidently, something called 'pebble bed reactors' that operate cleanly, have little waste, cannot melt-down the way rod reactors have...IF we have to have nuclear, then it should use this newer method.

SOLAR/WIND/GEOTHERMAL: It is impossible to fuel everything we want to power using these energy sources, YET; BUT, they can be used far more, and in more ways. Mandate changes to building codes: all buildings must have R-60 envelopes; maximize passive solar techniques, use active solar, geothermal, and rooftop double-helix wind generation to take that huge load off the Grid. Every rooftop to have living roof areas to compliment the Helix wind gens and panels up there. Heating and cooling are HUGE draws on the Grid---lower those draws and electric cars will have PLENTY of power--power to spare for electric public transit and more! This could provide thousands of jobs for many years, just retrofitting massive insulation and renewable/passive systems onto buildings. This is good for economy.

CURRENT GRID POWER: First they encouraged folks to save energy. We have. Now Utilities cry "poor mouth", saying they cannot pay their bills as a Utility, because so many are saving so much, not enough income is paid for power bills! GRID power companies must stop placing all their eggs in one basket--diversify! They could become collectives--everyone with panels and generators on buildings can sell energy back to Grid, and that can be marketed as Green energy. Power companies can also, because they have all the wires already in place, sell/rent VERY FAST internet connectivity, VERY CHEAPLY, that uses those wires: about 24 Mbps, via simple, plug-in units. This income could make up for lost revenue from energy customers, too--then utilities could stop cheating people with rigged computerized meters.

THE PENTAGON: --takes about half of our national budget[where the heck does that all go???]; the war itself only takes a fraction of that. Re-allocate about 1/4 of the Pentagon budget budget to retrofit everyone's buildings [start with owners who earn less than $50K per year] with as much passive solar, thermal paint, added insulation, renewable power sources that can be put on their buildings. With the leftovers, provide one Gizmo, R1e, or other electric car for each household, starting with those earning less than $40K per year. [I have a hunch it is that income level and below who commute most, as they cannot get jobs close to their lower-income homes.]

We have been tottering on the verge of economic collapse, not because of poverty, but because of incredibly bad management of resources, and leadership that is 'running all the lemmings off the cliff'.

I want my REAL electric car! Make it have: --Carbon fiber body; --All safety features+ of the safest cars; --Power to drive over the Rocky Mountains without needing to get out and push it; --60 mph for 200+ miles; --Carry 4 real people and their baggage over the Rocky Mountains. --Really good heat and defogging for the PNW climate! --Available A/C for those in hot climates. --Airless tires--a new development that avoids flats and can be retreaded nearly indefinitely. --Use Li batteries, or better: ones that have not made it to market yet-those are cheap, last long, and can be regenerated; others are very lightweight, yet have more power than Li batteries [Canada]. --Use far more efficient electric motors--ones we have used so far are clunkers--individuals have made some really intriguing developments--use those! --Fast charging--If I get 100 miles down road, I need to continue on in a couple hours--not overnight! Get it charged up while stopping for lunch, or during shopping for a couple hours! --Incorporate solar panels onto roof, hood and trunk decks. --Incorporate small wind generators within air intakes. --Generate power from turning drive train AND regenerative brakes. That's my input for now! Chi
Posted by: C H